Re: It Looks Like Mitt Reads Catholic Pillow Fight
Posted on: 12/08/2007 05:44 AM
You know that Romney's faith is an important part of how he looks at his life, and the decisions he makes. I can respect that. I may even vote for that on caucus night, we shall see. Good post.
BTW, Fred Thompson doesn't go to church, but says he is right with God and doesn't care if people don't like it. I can respect that too, sorta. Link:
Re: It Looks Like Mitt Reads Catholic Pillow Fight
Posted on: 12/08/2007 03:41 PM
While I think most of his speech makes excellent points, I also think he tries to have it both ways at times.
"Let me assure you that no authorities of my church, or of any other church for that matter, will ever exert influence on presidential decisions. Their authority is theirs, within the province of church affairs, and it ends where the affairs of the nation begin."
He can't both claim to be a faithful Mormon and also say this. In Mormon theology their current Prophet can change revelation at any time that even contradicts what previous prophets have said (like removing polygamy and allowing blacks to become Mormons.) Development of doctrine like in the Catholic Church is not the Mormon model. They don't have a natural law theology and so Mormon doctrine is not fixed.
Plus he has not always been a faithful Mormon as he claims since he supported same-sex marriage and abortion. Though Mormons are wobbly on abortion in that they have a rape/incest/health of mother exception and won't say when life begins.
Now I am more than willing to accept his pro-life conversion for the most part, though just yesterday he said that embryo's from IVF should be used for research. I think this shows that he doesn't really get it yet. Plus Gov. Romney's universal health care program for Massachusetts included taxpayer-funded abortions. Would a real pro-lifer had signed such a bill" This was after his pro-life conversion.
"There are some who would have a presidential candidate describe and explain his church's distinctive doctrines. To do so would enable the very religious test the founders prohibited in the Constitution."
Sorry this is just not true. The religious test in the constitution prevents the government from having a religious test, not voters. If a candidate is part of a doomsday cult I surely can reject him just on that basis. If a candidate is a Quaker surely questions about defending the nation in time of war would be appropriate.
> If an atheist does not believe in God, from where does he believe our > rights flow?
From the objective truth.
Let me ask you this. If you think rights flow from God, where does God get them? Does God tell you to do things because they are objectively right, true, and just, or does God tell you to do things willy-nilly on His whim with no objective moral basis for his commandments?
If God only tells you to do things that are objectively right, then an atheist can be equally moral as he or she can adhere to the same objective moral code as you and God do, independent of faith.
But if God can command people to do things that are objectively immoral (e.g. crash planes into buildings) then I think an atheist would make a BETTER president.
Re: It Looks Like Mitt Reads Catholic Pillow Fight
Posted on: 12/08/2007 08:00 PM
Where doesn an athiest get objective truth?
God designs them. Whatever God tells you is objectively right because that is the definition of God. He is objective truth.
If God only tells you to do things that are objectively right, then an atheist can be equally moral as he or she can adhere to the same objective moral code as you and God do, independent of faith.
That's why to take a person's faith into account when you vote for them. I would never vote for a Muslim either because I don't believe God tells you to crash planes into buildings.
Re: It Looks Like Mitt Reads Catholic Pillow Fight
Posted on: 12/08/2007 10:19 PM
> Where does an athiest [sic] get objective truth?
From reason. From his senses.
> Whatever God tells you is objectively right because that is the definition of God.
If you define God as objective truth, then you have no quarrel with an atheist. By that definition, whatever God would call truth would never disagree with what an atheist would call truth.
Re: It Looks Like Mitt Reads Catholic Pillow Fight
Posted on: 12/09/2007 05:28 PM
Not at all. I may not believe in God, yet I certainly do find many manifestations people's expression of religion quite beautiful, especially in art, culture, and social traditions. But when somebody starts spouting "holier than thou" rhetoric about how it's impossible to have a moral compass without believing in God, I get insulted.
After all, the list of immoral acts performed by believers in the name of God are legion. Who are these "holy" people that they feel they can lecture atheists about the one true source of morality. Did God tell them it was "moral" to marginalize people that don't follow their personal route to the truth? If that's the sort of "morality" God dispenses, I want none of it.
Thus, I think an atheist could be just as good a president as a black, a woman, a Moslem, a Mets fan, or even an old white Mormon dude.
Re: It Looks Like Mitt Reads Catholic Pillow Fight
Posted on: 12/10/2007 01:58 AM
> If you don't believe in God, from what does an atheist believe human rights flow? Other humans?
I already answered that question earlier in the thread. I guess you are having trouble accepting my answer. Be that as it may, I did answer you. I'd be happy to expand on it if you care to listen.
> I have seen too many atheists try and destroy the mention of God in the public square without any other "more reasonable" atheists condemning them.
Do you actually think that atheists pose any sort of threat to your faith? What a fragile faith you must have if it hinges on such tiny points. Listen. The vast majority of people in the world profess some
sort of religious conviction. As the majority, it's easy for religious people to bully and pick on a vulnerable minority like atheists. I guess it makes them feel superior in some way -- like bigoted white people felt superior to blacks and saw them as threatening.
In any case, I stand here as at least one example of a good person
that does not believe in God. Sorry. I don't know if God exists
or not, but good atheists certainly exist. In fact, I'd conjecture
that statistics would bear out that atheists tend to be good citizens in far higher proportion than non-atheists.
Reply
Back to top
Quote